The Things They Carried Discussion Questions: Set 2

[Mrs. C]

Please make sure you review the handout for Online Etiquette that is part of your summer assignment packet before engaging in discourse with your peers.

The second set of discussion questions is below. Do not feel as though you need to respond to every question, but do not focus all your responses on just a few questions; spread them out. Also, feel free to respond more than ten times.

**Make sure you read all student responses to the question you are responding to. You can respond to the question or to a student in particular--maybe you would like to address a point he or she has made. Use the "Reply to This" tag found at the bottom of each question and student response, and make sure you click on the right one for the particular question or student response you would like to reply to.

Make sure each posting is a suitable length, not too long and not too short. Each of your responses should be approximately five sentences long.

Let the discussion continue!

Sincerely, Mrs. Cohen

[Mrs. C]

1. The story Rat tells in "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" is highly fantastical. Does its lack of believability make it any less compelling? Do you believe it? Does it fit O'Brien's criteria for a true war story?

[Cullen M.]

I find that the "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" is very compelling even though many parts are not believable. I won't say whether or not I believe it because I personally believe that it should not be taken as a legitimate occurrence but more as an example of how the war envelopes and draws in people. O'Brien describes it as a "drug", with "a mix of unnamed terror and unnamed pleasure". It fits a true war story because it doesn't really matter if it happened or not. The point wasn't necessarily to tell the truth, but to try to describe the various feelings and sensations that come from war; how the war could put you "in touch with the far side of yourself" and give you "an intense, out-of-the-skin awareness of your very self".

[Carly R]

I found myself very drawn in and interested while reading "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong". However, after thinking about the story itself and how far away from reality it is, I found myself doubtful. I believe I was so engrossed by the novel that I fell into the same trap as the soldiers themselves. O'Brian even tells us that Rat Kiley was known for his exaggerations and overstatements, but by the reaction of the soldiers he tells, there was some degree of belief. This belief was somewhat hopeful, so that the men could escape into this fantasy world where it was possible to bring your girlfriend into a compound with you and be unnoticed. This wouldn't be what I would normally think, however O'Brian's decision to incorporate the story into his novel says something to me. This was not the first story that kept the men wishing and wondering about its level of truth. In the chapter titled "Spin", Mitchell Sanders smiles at a story he tells O'Brian about a man gone AWOL who ends up shacking up with a nurse, but his longing for the war brings him back to combat. After Sanders tells the story O'Brian explains so perfectly the feeling I'm trying to describe:
"I remember Mitchell Sanders smiling as he told me that story. Most of it he made up, I'm sure, but even so it gave me a quick truth-goose. Because it's all relative. You're pinned down in some filthy hellhole of a paddy, getting your ass delivered to kingdom come, but then for a few seconds everything goes quiet and you look up and see the sun and a few puffy white clouds, and the immense serenity flashes against your eyeballs-the whole world gets rearranged-and even though you're pinned down by a war you never felt more at peace." (O'Brain 35-36)
So maybe the story wasn't true. Maybe Rat Kiley told the men this story to make them feel that exact peace that O'Brian was talking about. When it comes to being in a war, reality takes on a new name and definition, almost obsolete. To be able to escape the reality that was the Vietnam War.This was the precise use of a true war story.

[Alexander N]

I agree that "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" is still very compelling despite the fact that it is not believable. My theory of its validity is that it is only has a basis of truth and that its less believable details are just a product of Rat's imagination, and that the line between his imagination and actual fact is blurred in this story. As Cullen said, the story's purpose is to show how the war draws people in like a drug, rather than to provide us with an actual account of reality. This is seen through Mary Anne's obsession with the war and with the Vietnam wilderness - how she is drawn in to its power like the soldiers are, hating it yet not being able to get enough of it. It fits as being a true war story, because even though it may not be entirely true, it tells of a fictionalized, dramatic version of an experience quite common to those who entered the war - being affected by the metaphorical "drug" of the adrenaline of it, and not being able to get enough of it.

[Joey P.]

I am also in agreement that "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" is very compelling. The story's believability is irrelevant. Whether it's factual of false the message is still the same. Not only does the story show how the war drew people in, but it also shows how much Vietnam changed people. I think it is interesting that O'Brien uses a female figure for his example. Mary Anne Bell came to Vietnam looking like a normal young girl with her pink sweater and sexy legs. This gives the reader a visual of a normal innocent young girl who has no interest in Vietnam and all its tragedy. But, after living there for a while, Mary Anne Bell becomes sucked in and is changed from this young attractive heart throb to a tough army girl who seeks adventure and thrill. Later in the novel O'Brien tells us that not all of the stories are true and i think this is one of those less than factual stories. However, I agree with Alexander that this is a perfect example of a "true war story" because it shows what a lot of men went through when they entered the war. Although the specific example may not be true the general message is.

[Lucas S.]

I believe "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" is still very compelling although it is not believable. I found that I almost had a feeling of childish wonderment while reading it. The feeling is similar to that of being told a ghost story while sitting around a camp fire. The details of the story may seem very hard to believe but the point of the story is to scare you, no matter how outrages the it is. In the same way, O'Brien 's criteria for a true war story is not to be "true" in the factual sense of the word, but to be true to the stories purpose, to communicate the message that war consumes all those involved and destroys innocence. While it is likely based in fact, "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" has highly fantastic details. I believe the more unbelievable details serve less as an account of truth and more as a vehicle to evoke the emotions of the listener so that they better understand the message being communicated. In this way I believe it fits what O'Brien would consider a true war story. Not a factual regurgitation of events but the passing on of an emotion and a message to the listener. The tale of Mary Anne may be only based on truth or, it may actually have never happened at all, but the war consuming all those involved and destroying innocence is a reality. I believe that "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" illustrates the message to the reader better then any "true" war story could.

[Joe S]

I agree with Lucas on this one. The details suck you in. The exaggerations and unbelievable details only serve to make the message clearer. The war in Vietnam messed you up. It doesn't matter if it's a true story. True or not the message remains the same. I don't care if it's true or not, I neither believe it nor disbelieve it. If O'Brien's idea of a true war story is to convey the emotions of how someone experienced something without regard to how the event may have really happened, then it follows the criteria.

[Lorin M]

I don't find the lack of believability in this story to make it any less compelling because the reality is not the purpose of the story. Its purpose is to show the reader an example of how war can interest people and draw them in with its excitement and danger. This is exactly what had happened to Mary Anne: she began to enjoy being a part of the war and started taking real life for granted. I believe that this story could have happened, although some parts aren't totally believable. Although it doesn't seem completely feasible, the story is possible and actually quite realistic in the way that people are drawn in by some of war's "good qualities". The story qualifies O'Brien's criteria for a "True War Story" because it leaves the morale out of it, but yet, when left to interpretation, is quite symbolic of tragedies in life outside of the Vietnam War, for instance, people's addiction to things that are dangerous.

[Doug P]

I personally don't believe this short story wasn't made to be believable, but rather made to be a symbol of the soldier's quest for normalcy in the most hellish of situations. O'Brien shows that the war cannot be suppressed by the thought of bringing home or safety to the warzone, but rather it consumes all that comes in its path, just in the way the rest of the soldiers became. Mary Anne is just an exaggerated case of the psychological effects of the war on the soldiers and all involved, and her mysterious disappearance into the wilderness of Vietnam symbolizes the psychological pain and suffering that essentially killed the emotional capacities of the soldiers who fought in the war, and how they left some of themselves in the jungles and rice paddies of Vietnam.

[William P]

I feel that the fantastical details of "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" only illuminated the message and meaning of the story. As said by Doug, Mary Anne is an exaggerated example of how war does not build, but breaks psychological stability. In story telling, it is necessary to add these fantastical details to further prove a point. I'd say a good example of this is in the movie Braveheart. Before a battle, William Wallace introduces himself, a man in the crowd of soldiers replies "But William Wallace is seven feet tall!". That soldiers image of William Wallace was probably acquired through a story in which they claimed William Wallace to be a very large and powerful man; which fantastically boasted Wallace's strength and courage in a way that seems fictional. Such examples of this in "Sweetheart" are Mary Anne's necklace of human tongues and her disturbing disappearance during the war.

[Luke C]

I agree that the lack of believability does not make this "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" any less compelling. O'Brien made this story not to convince people that this actually happened to Mary Anne but to show the reader how the war can affect people. O'Brien almost had to make up a story because he cannot fit in one chapter a true story that shows how people change. He had to create this story so that the reader would be able to see the drastic effect that Vietnam had on people. This is O'Brien's idea of a "true" war story because it shows the changes soldiers felt and how the war could destroy people. Even though "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" is unbelievable it is still one of O'Brien's most compelling stories on how the Vietnam War could destroy people's lives.

[Eleni C]

I found the story "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong" very compelling, although some parts not believable. But the purpose of this story was not to be believable, but rather to show the compelling difference between Americans and the indigenous world of Vietnam. Although some parts of the story are taken over by Rat's imagination, it still shows that once a foreign American comes into the dangerous and exciting world of Vietnam, they are completely affected and transformed by the nature of the war itself. Unlike the American soldiers in Vietnam, Mary Anne Bell completely embraces the Vietnamese culture and lets it transform her, symbolized by the necklace of tongues she wears around her neck. I think "Sweetheart of the Song Tra Bong fits O'Brien's criteria for a true war story, because it serves a higher purpose without being completely factual. According to O'Brien, a true war story doesn't necessarily need to be true, because in Vietnam, there is a blurry line between truth and fiction. His criteria of a true war story is a story that teaches the listener or reader, some of the profound affects of the war in Vietnam on an American.